CHARLIE LOKE INTERVIEWED BY ALAN MACFARLANE 22 FEBRUARY 2007


AM

It's a great pleasure to be having a chance to talk to Charlie Loke, a Fellow at King's College, whom I've known for many years and been on the same staircase with for some years now. Charlie, when were you born and where?

CL

Date of birth is 16 December 1934 and I was born in Kuala Lumpur which was the capital of Malaysia.

AM

Now I know you come from a part of a very interesting family from that region. Could we go back a few, as far back as you can remember, perhaps on your father's side first? How far back can you remember on your father's side?

CL

My father's side, I didn't really know my grandfather but I know that he came from Guangdong province, southern China. So his origin we know about. He married a local lady because in the old days they don't bring their women with them. So my father's side is well documented in that sense that we know precisely where my grandfather came from.

AM

What was his village? Do you know anything about it?

CL

I don't actually but many people do. In fact, one of my cousins actually have built a hospital in his name and his name is called Loke Yew. So we do know where the village is.

AM

How do you spell it?

CL

Loke is the surname, Yew is Y-E-W. That's unusual because as you know Chinese have usually two other names, it's always Loke Yew something. But his is rather strange in that he only had one name, which is Yew. I am told that the reason for this is that his surname wasn't really Loke at all in the first place. His surname is Wong. So that his surname is Wong Loke Yew. For some reason I think he discarded Wong, I don't know why that is, and therefore used the other two names and it became Loke Yew, and Loke therefore became our surname and he only had one other name which is Yew.


AM

Do you know why he left China?

CL

I think that he left China for the reasons when most people left China.

AM

When was this?

CL

That must be in the late 1800s, early 1900s, to look for work and things. The story goes that he came to Malaysia with about $10 in his pocket and he made all the money in his lifetime. So he came as a sort of indentured labourer under the British government and he built up tin mining and rubber industry in Malaysia during his lifetime.

AM

That was his occupation as an industrialist?

CL

Yes. Then of course from there he bought a lot of land and owned a lot of houses. So the property, tin mines and rubber estates still I think remain the family assets as of now.

AM

And this is around Kuala Lumpur is it?

CL

Well it started off around Kuala Lumpur but then it spread to other states in Malaysia, spread as far as Singapore and also as far as Hong Kong. But it's mainly around Kuala Lumpur and the environment. Because when tin mines became used up, because in the old days they were sort of open cast tin mines and once it's used up it's useless anymore as a mine. So what happens is that it's just big holes filled with water in the old days and there's no use for them. But fortunately, grandfather had the foresight of converting many of these mines to other uses, like developing townships and things. So from there he made a lot of industry going in Malaysia from disused tin mines. And in fact we still have a lot of disused tin mines in the family assets. And recently we were debating whether we should sell some of these disused mines which have no use whatsoever. And fortunately before we sold any of these things they built this multimedia corridor in Kuala Lumpur which therefore made these mines within the corridor quite a potentially very good investment. So we have not sold any of these disused holes with wate, so that potentially they could be quite useful I suppose financially.

AM

What was his connection with Hong Kong? I've heard something that he was connected with Hong Kong quite strongly.

CL

Yes, one of his passions really is education and he started what's called Loke Yue Scholarships to support candidates, particularly for medicine and for engineering. And in those days there were no universities in Malaysia or Singapore and Hong Kong had one so that he had these scholarships going for...

AM

From Malaysia to Hong Kong?

CL

Well yes, I think that a lot of the students came from Malaysia and Singapore to Hong Kong but they're not restricted as far as I know to Malaysia and Hong Kong because Hong Kong people themselves can use these scholarships. But unfortunately these scholarships have disappeared for a while merely because I think the capital died out during the war and things. So that one of the things that I would very much like to do is to resurrect some of these scholarships and we are now having some discussion with Hong Kong University as to how best to resurrect these defunct scholarships.

AM

Did you gather anything about his personality? You've never met him, I gather, but did you gather from your father or mother what sort of person he was? Was he a nice man, an interesting man?

CL

I think he was a nice man. He was an honest man and a determined and focused man, that's what I know. So he wasn't devious as far as I can tell. And that's why he got on very well with the British administration in Malaysia. They all trusted him to do things and I think that must be the basic quality that made him part of the colonial system as it were.

AM

Did he play a role? Was he a judge or magistrate?

CL

No, no, in fact no he didn't actually. I don't know whether it's just he didn't because of him, but I think in those days, in the colonial days, I don't think that any non-British people actually played a role in that kind of capacity.

AM


You said he married a Malay?

CL

Not Malaysian, he married a lady from Malaysia, but I don't know much about her background.

AM

But she was a local?

CL

Yes, that's right.

AM

And how many children did they have?

CL

So that grandfather had two wives I think. This is approximate. No, he's not a Muslim.

AM

Simultaneously or one after the other?

CL

I think that most of the marriages in those days are sequential. Yes, I don't think, unlike the Muslims where they have four together. So we have this one wife with two children and then he married another one later with three children I think.

AM

You're from the first one?

CL

I'm from the first.

AM

I see. What about your mother's side? Do you know anything about your mother's parents or grandparents?

CL

Yes, my mother's side is perhaps more interesting background-wise because she comes from Penang and in Penang there is a population called Baba Chinese or Peranakan Chinese who have been in Malaysia for generations. So unlike my grandfather's side that we can trace back to only three generations that come from China, the Baba Chinese in Malaysia have been there for years. So my grandmother for instance speaks Malay and Hokkien. She wears what's called a sarong, kabaaya, which is a sarong and a top. And she chews betel nut and that kind of thing, which is something very special to the Baba Chinese. And of course the origin of the Baba Chinese, because they've been there for so long, there must be a tremendous admixture between Chinese and Malays. Because Penang, Malacca and Singapore of course are the main three ports for trade between the West and the East, so that there are in fact still enclaves of Portuguese, Armenians, Parsis, Jews, etc. who are all mixed up in that part of the world. And I think my grandmother and my mother's side is probably part of this big mixture. In fact I think that in a recent book called 'Penang', it describes Penang very well actually. That is that Penang is historically where the East India Company confronts Chinese civilisation in the Malay world. And that's the mixture that we have on my mother's side and therefore maybe looking at me you will find that I'm not typical Chinese in that sense. I think that probably comes from my mother's side, whereas my Chinese features are from my father's side. So that even when I go home in Malaysia now, you know that a lot of people will mistake me for Thai, Burmese, Philippine, Malay, all that except Chinese.

AM

Did you live with your grandmother, your mother's mother?

CL

Yes, yes, yes. In fact we lived in Penang for quite some time before I came over to school here. So in fact I know Penang and my Penang side more than I know my Kuala Lumpur side.

AM

Now moving down to your parents' generation, are your parents still alive or have they passed away?

CL

No, my father died quite a long time ago, way back in 1970-something, when he was 72 years old. My mother just died last year at the age of 93. So I always feel that if longevity is hereditary, I am just between the two.

AM

Did either of their personalities have a strong effect on you? Is there anything about them that particularly influenced what you've become or done in your life?

CL

Well, yes, I suppose so, in the sense that, well first of all I was sent to school very early, so that must be..

AM

In England?

CL

In England, so that I left home when I was about 13. But even before I left home, I think my upbringing in those days, I don't know whether it's just ours or our social circle, but we were all brought up by nannies.

AM

Ayahs.

CL

Ayahs, that's right, ayahs. So I had very little to do with my mother and my father. They come and go and they dictate things, but most of my time and my upbringing, really I was looked after by these ayahs. The other manifestation of course is whether or not you go to an English-speaking school or a Chinese-speaking school. So that also is a divide in those days. I went to an English-speaking school. I went to in fact one of these Christian brother schools, of which is quite a lot of, and my sisters went to a convent.

AM

So you were a Christian?

CL

No, not at all. I was merely at school. That's why I think we have to learn the Bible and recite Catechisms and things, but no, we don't have to be Christians to be there. And I think that I was fortunate actually because one thing that I gained from these schools is that it's one of the few places that you actually learn Latin. If I had gone to any other schools I think it would be quite difficult to come over here and just start off as if nothing's happened. My father himself went to, came to school in England.

AM

He did?

CL

Yes, he did, but he went to Aberdeen Grammar School for some reason. And in those days there's a very strong Scottish influence because all the rubber planters and things are Scotsmen. I was destined for either Eton or Harrow to aim to the top. And then my parents know a couple in Cambridge very well, the Burkills, I'm not sure if you know them. B-U-R-K-I-L-L, the Burkills. He was the master of Peterhouse and Greta Burkill, in fact, was quite a formidable lady here. She actually founded the Graduate Centre and she was a founding member of New Hall and so on. So they were academics in Cambridge and my father knew them very well. And seeing that they were going to be my guardians, they said that why send them so far away like Eton or Harrow. Send him to school to Lees and we can look after him much better here. And we used to live in Chaucer Road and I remember that we lived in Chaucer Road for many, many years.

AM

Do you remember your first impression of arriving in England or going to school in England?

CL
16.48
Yes, we arrived in London and I still remember I was still a little boy in shorts. And I must say it was less traumatic than I expected it to be because after reading Tom Brown's school days and things, I thought that the first thing you would do would be whipped by a senior boy. It wasn't like that at all in fact, the Lees was quite humane. And I remember standing there by the radiator in East House, which was my house, and new boys have to come the day before the hordes descend on the school. And another boy came in, a new boy, and said, I'm Colin Kinear. Who are you? And I said that I'm Yung Wai Loke. And since then, nobody could actually pronounce Yung Wai. So that after a while, I think that the name Charlie gradually got given to me and it's stuck ever since. So I still think of that first day at school and how benign it was and how friendly this chap actually came and introduced himself as “Colin Kinear. Who are you?” without bashing me up.

AM

You remained friends with him?

CL

Yes, for a long time. For a long time.

AM

Were there any teachers at the Lees...? Sometimes people are quite influenced by a special teacher or a special friend. Was there anyone at the Lees who had a big influence on your subsequent life?

CL

No, I can't say. No, in fact there isn't actually. But lots of nice, very good masters who taught me how to play games. Because I think that in those days, I think all public schools were very gamey.

AM

You already knew tennis?

CL

Yes, I played tennis and then I learned hockey. I played even rugger for the school and then for someone my size, I think that's quite surprising. Because I made the decision that if you want to play rugger, it is better to play it properly in the first 15 or second 15. Because if you don't, you get landed up in the fourth or fifth 15, then it becomes a real massacre. It's because when you get down so low that you don't play the game any more. It's a survival of the fittest. So I decided that. So I got into the first and second 15.

AM

What position did you play?

CL

I played wing three quarter because I used to run quite fast, that's right. So I survived five years of playing rugger in school without breaking anything or without suffering any harm. So that's quite good, I thought.

AM

Did you begin to get particularly interested in any school subjects or extra school subjects at that time?

CL

I've always been a scientist and biology has always been my subject.

AM

Was it one or other seashore in Malaysia?

CL

Maybe, maybe. Because I've always in fact wanted to be a marine biologist way back. But of course in those days, everybody poo-pooed the idea and said, what's that? What's marine biologist? You have to have a career. Then I landed in medicine because that's something in which you have to do it. If you want to do something biological, then you do something biologically useful. So I gave up the idea of marine biologist and did medicine. But my heart, I think I have to confess, my heart was really in it and that's why as soon as I qualified, signed my name in the medical register, became a doctor, I went back to research entirely. So I have never practised, I've never really used my stethoscope in any useful way to patients.

AM

So at school, did you do the scientific subjects exclusively and biology, chemistry, physics, those sorts of things?

CL

Yes, yes. I think that for the sixth form, I think those are the three you have to choose, yes, biology, physics and chemistry.

AM

Did you go back to Malaysia for school holidays or did you stay here all the time?

CL

I go back every now and again but not every year. Then my parents used to come and visit me every now and again and then we used to tour Europe and things. So I don't go back every single year.

AM

How close were your relations with your parents? At times it sounds quite a distant relationship because you had been brought up by an Ayah, and then you came to boarding school here. Were they sort of rather distant parents to you or did you get close to either your mother or father?

CL

No, I think distant, full stop.

AM

What did your father do? Did he carry on the family business?

CL

Yes.

AM

So you're now 18 and you decided, I mean you just assumed you would go to university, was it?

CL

Yes, I think that, I don't know, in those days that's the normal sequence of events that after school you go either to university, or go into the church, or go into the army or what have you, so you go somewhere. Yes, so I decided to go to university.

AM

By this time, some of the theme of these questions is about identity, about Chineseness, Malaysianness, Britishness. By the age of 18 and five years at an English school, were you now feeling more, as it were, British or English than you were Chinese or Malaysian? Or did you still feel half and half or what?

CL

No, in fact actually I didn't feel anything then because I just lived the life that's available to me, so I never questioned whether this life I'm living is more British or more Chinese. I think that question only has arisen recently after my retirement. No, I never questioned that, I just get on with it, and it just so happens that my life just became more and more, I suppose, anglicised, it's because I'm here, all the things I do are here and in fact all my friends are British. In fact I hardly knew any Malaysians, So gradually I must have drifted without knowing that I had drifted.

AM

And you never found any conflicts either between the family systems or religious ideas or ethics or anything between your Chinese-Malay background and your British? There were no obvious stresses?

CL

Not at all, not at all. I think that I suppose in those days, in Malaysia being an old colony, the British system already exists, so nobody questioned the way you live or what religion you are and that kind of thing, so no, there was no conflict whatsoever. And in fact at home we speak more English than Chinese, even to my parents. So the only time I speak a non-English language is to the servants. So the servants always tend to be Chinese, so we speak Chinese to the servants and then the chauffeur for some reason tend to be Malay, so you learn a bit of Malay, but you only speak bazaar Malay to them. And then things like the gardeners and things are always Indian, so they seem to have categorised, so you speak a bit of Indian to the gardeners and things. But most of the time I think you speak English in the house.

AM

Did you apply to several different universities or just...? You came to Cambridge presumably, or not?

CL

Yes, so that' again was chosen for me in the sense that my uncle, Lok Wan Tho, was an undergraduate at King's in the 1930s.

AM

How do you spell that?

CL

Lok Wan Tho, W-A-N-T-H-O, this was my uncle. My father is Lok Wan Yat. So Uncle Wan Tho was an undergraduate here and recently, as you know, he in fact endowed a studentship in King's. So he being here, I of course applied here. I think it was chosen for me by the Burkills because Mrs Burkill and Daddy Burkill, of course being in the academic system, knew precisely where I should go. And to make things, I suppose, easier too is that the senior tutor in those days, someone called Patrick Wilkinson, who was in fact a contemporary of my uncle's. So he knew my uncle and in those days the selection is not as severe as it is now. So sometimes I do feel that maybe I did get him through a certain degree of nepotism, I'm not sure. But it's quite nice...

AM

Did you have an interview?

CL

I can't remember. I think I must have had an interview and took some exams, some college exams and things, but I can't remember. Of course you pass First MB or something in those days, as well as A-levels, I'm not sure. But anyway, yes, so I got into King's. Again, everything was arranged as a matter of course.

AM

Who were your teachers when you were at King's?

CL
27:37 HERE
My main teachers, whom I remember very well of course, is Kendal Dixon.

AM

Hal Dixon's elder brother.

CL

That's right. Although when I first came, my director of studies was a chap called David Stockdale, who was a natural scientist. Because in those days when I first came, there wasn't such a thing as a medical scientist's tripos. All medics come up as natural scientists because there wasn't a special medical tripos. So we are all under a natural science director of studies. And then gradually I think Kendal took over, so he became more my mentor in my later years in King's and in subsequent years. In fact it was Kendal that brought me back to Cambridge afterwards.

AM

Can you say something about him, about his intellect or his character?

CL

Oh, Kendal was a wonderful man. I think that it's very difficult to describe Kendal. I think that he's the kind of person who cannot see bad in anyone. I think sometimes you know that everyone, no matter how bad, has an excuse to be so. So he's a wonderful man and very, very gentle and a very good director of studies. And he knows what is good for the students under his care. I think he has this perceptive nature that he immediately knows what's good for someone. So his advice is always invaluable. And he just looked way back from the beginning, like after King's, which hospital should I go to? And I took his advice and I went to St Thomas' Hospital in London. And in those days, it's not as democratic as now where the students actually decide where they go and even what room they have in college is under committee. But in my day, at the end of the year, you go to a senior tutor who will say, right, next year, Loke, you will have S1 in S staircase. And you walk out and say, yes, thank you. But now you have this ballot system. And at the end of the three years, Kendal will say, right, Charlie, I think that you will suit St Thomas' very well. And you say, yes, Kendal. So you go to St Thomas'. But now, as Director of Studies, I find my students coming up, arguing, debating which hospital they ought to go to and which one. So it's a different system. But I think that it worked very well, merely because I think you have to have respect for the person that's giving you the advice. And Kendal is very close to me and anything he says is OK by me.

AM

Did either Fellows or contemporary students have a big influence on you, or remain friends? I mean there must be a number, so who would you want to pick out from that time among the Fellows of King's? I can't remember who was Provost, was it Shepherd?

CL

Provost Shepherd was, yes.

AM

And Patrick Wilkinson was around. And John Raven?

CL

John Raven was there but I didn't really know him. I must say that I didn't really know too many of the other Fellows. I used to know Dan Brown very well, because he taught me a few things. And Hal, of course, I used to know. But apart from those few, I didn't really know too many Fellows in Kings. It's strange in the sense that I don't know why it happens.

AM

Was there anything, I mean King's has changed hugely. We are talking now about the '50s. Was there any feature of it at that time? Was there more collegiality, more games playing or music?

CL

I think the main difference, of course, is that that's the time when there was no State school pupils in Kings. So they're all from Public schools and things. And you come up with a lot of friends from your own schools, although they are scattered around other colleges and things. So life was easy in the sense that, in fact, there was hardly any change between school and university, because you just have the same kind of people, the same people. So that is, I think, the main difference between then and now. But of course, then we have more traditions, I think, in those days. I think one of the traditions that I feel sorry that we have discarded is that of dining in Hall every night. And I think that that's a very good...

AM

You mean as undergraduates?

CL

Yes, as undergraduates. Because now we talk a lot about community spirits and things, but we never know how to stimulate this community. And I think Hall, in the old days, must be the way. We used to do it because you can come in and you can sit next to the mix-free place without feeling embarrassed about it. And that's how you get to know people. But now, with separate tables and things, you tend to come in with friends and you leave with friends. And if you don't have any friends to come in and leave with then I think you feel rather isolated. And I feel this very strongly once when I had a... as director of studies, when I had a girl student, first year. I always see them before the first year for drinks and things. And afterwards, she stayed on in my room and I said, why don't you go in for dinner like everybody else? And she said she's too scared to go in because she hasn't made any friends during the few days of matriculation and therefore has nobody to go in with. So I felt that's very sad because if there was formal Hall, she would have gone in and sat in the next empty space and nothing more would be said. But because of the separate tables, she was too frightened to go. So for several nights, I had to take her in myself and sit with her in Hall. So I think that's one thing I wish maybe King's will bring back and that is just dying. But I think the resistance of course is that it may be expensive. It may be elitist. People don't have time to all come in at the same time. But I think all that can be cast aside for this one reason that it creates a nice community once a day.

AM

Yes. A lot of Oxford colleges do.

CL

Do they? Okay.

AM

Apart from work, were there any hobbies or sports or activities in particular that you did as an undergraduate?

CL

Oh gosh, I used to do too many sports actually. I think much to the irritation of Kendall. I played hockey for the college and I played tennis for the college and I was a tennis captain for several years. I used to play squash for the college. In those days, there wasn't a golf team in college but nevertheless, I played golf. And in fact, so much so that I remember a letter that Kendall actually wrote to me saying that Charlie, I suggest that you ought to make some adjustment to your lifestyle because the way you're going, you'll never be able to do all your sports and get a reasonable tripos result. So I suggest that if you don't want to change your sporting life, then maybe you should change to an easier tripos such as land economy. But I managed to squeeze in both, and I still remember that I was sitting next to Kendall when I was inducted as a Fellow at the Beves dinner.

AM

When was that?

CL

I think I was inducted as a fellow in 1972, I think. And then I told Kendall about this, and Kendall being Kendall was so nice and his remark was, Charlie, I think I made a mistake.

AM

So you then got your degree here and went to St Thomas'. How long did you go for?

CL

So three years. So three years here and three years there. And in those days you actually come back to Cambridge to take your exam so that you get your M.B, B. Ch, Cantab at the end of three years. So that although you're down there for three years, you are still a Cambridge in statue, people are, as it were, even down there. But now it's different. Now you go down and you've left Cambridge and when you get your degree you become M.B, B.S, London. So you have cut off the Cambridge connection now. So after three years there, yes, so I came back and did a year or two postgraduate in the Middlesex Hospital, changed my hospital. And then I went back to Malaysia to teach in the University of Malaysia where they started the new medical school. So I actually taught the first batch of medics that graduated from the Malaysian medical school. And I was there for three, four years in fact, actually.

AM

Did you enjoy that period?

CL
HERE 39:12
Yes, it was very good. In fact, I had no intention of leaving as such. It's just that I came back to King's because I wrote my M.D. thesis and after the M.D. thesis you have to come back to do your Viva, called the act, before you get your scarlet gown. And I came back to see Kendall and dine with Kendall. And I said to Kendall, I've just got my M.D., my scarlet gown, so very nice. I think I might go now after my M.D. cantab. I thought I might go and get a D.Phil. Oxon. because there's an opening in Oxford for a research position. And Kendall again, his advice is that, you know, Charlie, you cannot go through life chasing your scarlets. You have one already, why go chasing some more? There is in fact an assistant lectureship coming up in the Department of Pathology in Cambridge, and they say that if you want to give it a try, so why don't you come back for a while?

AM

What made you decide that you would do that? You had quite enjoyed Cambridge.

CL

Yes, so I thought I'd give it a try because, you know, that's OK, it's an assistant lectureship. And that was in 1967 or something like that. And I thought I'd come back for three years, nothing's lost, and then I'd go back again. And of course, you know, from the assistant lectureship I got promoted to my lectureship. And from my lectureship I got tenured from the lectureship. And then Kendall retired and he must have recommended me to take over from him, which again, I was surprised that that took place. So I got my fellowship, my teaching fellowship. Then from there I got my professorial fellowship. And as you know, that I'm now Life Fellow. So I never left really from then onwards. I never had to think about leaving, it's because everything was so continuous. And this is what I found difficult now, is that all my life during my career, things have moved on step by step without my having to actually think about it. It's just, it's only after retirement now that I have to ask the question, what shall I do now? Where shall I go? Where shall I live? And it's quite difficult really now.

AM

We'll get on to that in a moment. But your main work, your main research and your main interest is in, I'm not qualified to talk about it, but the word placenta rings a bell with me. Can you describe roughly what your research has been focused on and centred on over the years?

CL

Yes, I work on the placenta and I work on the immunology of the placenta. And the reason for immunology of the placenta is that during pregnancy, the baby really is foreign to the mother. And the question arises is, being a foreign organ in the mother, why is it not rejected like other organs, like kidney transplants and things and things. So why can nature do it so well, while clinical transplantation surgeons cannot do so without immunosuppressive drugs and things and things. So that's the major question that arose only in the 1950s when people like Peter Medawar and things, when they discovered that transplantation rejection is actually due to the recognition of self and non-self, and it's the non-self that gets rejected. So why is the non-self fetus not rejected? So that whole concept came into being in the 1950s. So that's the reason why we work on this immunology. And why the placenta, of course, is a relatively recent thing in the sense that it's not the baby which should be the main focus, but it is the placenta, because the placenta is the organ that divides the baby from the mother. So it is the rejection or non-rejection and the survival of the placenta which is of prime importance, not the baby. Whereas previously it is the baby that people focus on, and that's why we never got the answer. But now that we're focusing on the placenta now, we think that that's the way to go.

AM

Are we getting an answer now?

CL

Not yet, but I think we're getting very interesting answers, and that is the placenta, although it is fetal, it is a fetal part of the fetus, it is not exactly the same as the fetus. It has very special qualities that the fetus does not possess. And these special qualities of the placenta makes the mother's immune recognition of the placenta slightly different from the kind of immune rejection which is made by a transplant recipient for a foreign graft. So there's this analogy that Medawar, ever since the 1950s, had brought forward the fetus as a graft is not entirely true because the fetus has nothing to do with it, and the placenta is the prime focus. And the placenta is something special about it that makes it not exactly identical to a graft, so that the whole concept of the fetus as a graft has to be dismantled and dismissed. So that we feel that this on its own is a very important part of our research, that we have established a new paradigm that's been going on for 50 years or more now, and that paradigm has therefore got to be shifted before we move on. So that's one important thing, that the placenta is quite different, and the mother's recognition is also quite different from the model that other people have built up. And the mother's recognition also is very interesting in the sense that in the normal recognition of a transplant recipient for a foreign graft is the recognition of the presence of non-self, and that's why you get rejected. In other words, that is the presence of a difference which is recognised and therefore you're rejected. But in reproductive immunology it is not exactly like that, and the recognition is not of non-self, but it's the recognition of missing self, and that is the absence of self which is being recognised. So you can see that therefore in immunological recognition there are two ways in which we can recognise something as foreign. One is the presence of a difference, the other one is the absence of similarities, and this is the way in which it's more important to reproductive immunology. So that is a second important paradigm which we have established in reproduction. So that although we haven't found the answer why pregnancy is successful, along the way we have dismantled some very old paradigms, very old models, and leading to new ones. So I think to me, I think conceptually that's even more exciting than finding the answer why pregnancy is successful.

AM

Fascinating. This is rather frivolous, but as you know, one of your colleagues who wrote a piece on you suggested that possibly one reason, one among many reasons why this particular problem of how it is that you have something inside you which is different and yet is accepted as one of you, this sort of intermediate category, the same but different within the body, has a curious parallel, you might say an elective affinity with your own status as a Chinese-Malay in British society, and therefore your emotional and identity position has a sort of similarity to your theoretical interests. I mean, as we I think agree, it's rather fanciful and can be overdone, but do you see anything in that at all, or is it just a clever idea?

CL

No, I think it's, yes, I think that it doesn't really, I think the analogy doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, but I can see that conceptually it is quite clever in the sense that, yes, the placenta neither belongs to the fetus nor the mother, and I neither belong to the East nor the West, so I think that I suppose if you stretch the analogy sufficiently, I suppose, yes, I can see that, but I know the person who wrote it and I think that very imaginative, but I think that not quite, a bit overdone.

AM

On this last question of identity, you've mentioned to me that you've been back, you quite often go back to Malaysia in the hope that you will find there perhaps some identity and link with your past and with your family and with people there, but after a few weeks you always feel you're a stranger there and then you come back here. Is that a preoccupation with you at the moment?

CL

Yes, it is, yes, it is. I can't settle, that's what you mean, yes, I can't settle and I can't decide whether or not it is my fault or the fault of Malaysia and maybe it is both. I think that I have moved on and all the things and my friends and things there I know very well, but we have nothing in common anymore. So I do feel lonely, and I think that, I can't remember who actually said that, I think the loneliness that you feel in the presence of friends, in fact, is worse than the loneliness that you feel when you're on your own with this, because I'm surrounded by friends and sometimes I sit in a dinner party with a lot of them around and suddenly I felt this sense of loneliness because they are talking about things that I don't understand and when I say something and I talk about things there is a certain blankness about it. So yes, that's the difficulty and I just wonder whether or not it can ever be overcome unless I change, and I can't change unless I go back longer. So it's a catch-22 situation that I haven't given myself enough time to get acclimatised and if I don't do that I can never find a solution, so I don't know what is the solution.

AM

What about here, do you feel a sense of loneliness here?

CL

No I don't actually, no I don't. I wish the push from here is greater, that I will get back easier. No, the pull here is in fact, if anything, getting stronger and stronger and stronger. When I come back from Malaysia, when I park my car in the Backs and walk across the bridge and I look at my room in Gibbs and I say, ah, I have come home. And I feel irritated in some ways and I feel that maybe I shouldn't feel like that, I should get that feeling when I land in Malaysia that ah, I have come home, but it's not working out that way.

AM

Well that seems, the tape is just finishing, so that seems a rather nice note to end on.

CL

Oh good.

AM

Unless there's anything else you want to say.

CL

Not at all, so I think that I have rambled on and I don't know whether my rambles are of any...

AM

They are very worthwhile, and they're not rambles, but it's nice that you feel you've come home. It reminds me recently we had a discussion about the great Chinese poet, Xu Zhimo, and his feeling that Cambridge was more dear to him and closer to him after two years here than the whole of China. And in his famous poem, 'Saying Goodbye to Cambridge Again', the longer version says, you know, I feel more about Cambridge than I've ever felt about my own country. So you are in very distinguished company, so thank you very much indeed Charlie.

CL

Well thank you Alan.